Denim Slade

What Motivates The People Around Me?: With Denim Slade

This week, we have a series of firsts. It is the first time Ferne and I interview a podcast guest together. And it is the first time we have Dr. Denim Slade, my own personal coach (because I think even coaches need a coach) live on the show. Denim is one of the few PhD-level relationship coaches in the world and is well known for developing the C.O.R.E. assessment, an evidence-based personality and temperament test. On this episode of the Frame of Mind Coaching™ Podcast, we interview Denim to learn more about his assessment tool and how it helps him understand the drivers and motivations of his clients.

Episode Transcript

[00:00:00] Kim Ades: Hello, hello. My name is Kim Ades, I am the president and founder of Frame of Mind Coaching and the co-founder of The Journal That Talks Back. Today you have joined The Frame of Mind Coaching Podcast with my co-host, Ferne Kotlyar! Who happens to be my daughter. There you go, we just changed it. You're officially my co-host. Welcome, Ferne!

[00:00:25] Ferne Kotlyar: Wow! Big upgrade. Thank you!  

[00:00:27] Kim Ades: I know. I think it's time. So today we also have a guest, and this is not just any guest, he's actually my coach. I believe that every coach needs a coach. I live by it, breathe by it, die by it. So here's my coach, and I'm happy, pleased, proud to introduce Denim Slade to the podcast. Denim, welcome.

[00:00:54] Denim Slade: Thank you. I'm thrilled to be here and really excited to talk to both of you and to talk about what we're talking about today. So thanks.  

[00:01:04] Kim Ades: Okay, well let's give people a little bit of background. You live in Utah and it's kind of funny to me that I have a coach in Utah because, Kim Ades, who grew up in Montreal as an Egyptian Jew suddenly has a coach from the other side of almost the world for me, it's a little bit funny. And you can even see like, what's sitting in your background? Is that like a horse whip or something? What is that?  

[00:01:30] Denim Slade: Yeah, it's a lasso. [Chuckles]  

[00:01:32] Kim Ades: It's a lasso. So I'm working with a cowboy...

[00:01:35] Denim Slade: [Laughs]  

[00:01:36] Kim Ades: ...which is the hilarious. It's about as diametrically opposed to me as a person could possibly find, but very cool. You weren't always a coach. Where did you start off? Give us a little bit of background.  

[00:01:51] Denim Slade: Well, what's even funny is that I'm not a cowboy. [Chuckles] We lived in Texas for 10 years before, and so I had a bunch of Texas stuff that I had decorated my office in, and so in Utah it's just a cowboy, but in Texas it's Texas, so [chuckles] I'm not a very cowboy cowboy. But yeah, I have my doctorate from Ohio State and I was a therapist for over 20 years before moving into to coaching, about two and a half or three years ago.

And so, I've been working one on one and with couples and families for over 25 years and have developed... I've taken my 10 years of education and 20 plus years of experience and developed some tools that research has shown and clinical experience has shown to be really helpful to help people make changes in their lives.

[00:02:51] Kim Ades: And we're gonna get there, but why did you switch from therapy to coaching? Like, what's the-- A lot of people wanna know what's the difference.  

[00:03:00] Denim Slade: Yeah, that's a really good question. So one of the main differences between coaching and therapy is that in therapy you're working with people with diagnosed disorders or you're treating diagnosed disorders, like depression or anxiety or bipolar, borderline personality disorder.

And so, moving into coaching enables me to... 1) to expand my practice, so that I can work with people in Canada. I've got clients in the Netherlands and in Mexico and all over the United States, and you can't do that as a therapist.  

And so, it allows me to be able to expand my practice. And in coaching you're really taking people who are normally doing pretty well in their lives and wanna do better. And a lot of times in therapy you're taking people that are not necessarily doing very well in their lives and trying to get them kind of to a baseline of doing okay.  

[00:04:03] Kim Ades: So you're saying it's a bit more inspiring.  

[00:04:06] Denim Slade: Can be a bit more inspiring, changes the population. I no longer work with mental illness and those kinds of things, but it's not a whole lot different than how I've always worked, frankly. I've always really focused on trying to help people make changes in their lives and develop the lives and their relationships that they wanna have.  

[00:04:31] Kim Ades: Okay. So one of the things that you-- By the way, the way that I met Denim was I was on his podcast. And I'm on a lot of podcasts and I talk to a lot of people, but after I spoke to Denim, after the podcast was over, actually what happened was, if I remember correctly, we kind of messed up the timing on the podcast.  

[00:04:53] Denim Slade: We did. [Chuckles]

[00:04:54] Kim Ades: We messed up the timing on the podcast, and when we got to the podcast, I realized there wasn't gonna be enough time for him to interview me. So... Given my nature, I took the bull by the horns... Is that the expression?  

[00:05:08] Denim Slade: You took the reins. [Chuckles]  

[00:05:08] Kim Ades: I took the reins and I actually flipped the interview around and I interviewed Denim instead of him interviewing me. And I found that what I was learning was really interesting, it kind of drew me in, and that's how I ended up starting to work with him.

But at the very beginning, you made me do something called a CORE assessment, so maybe you can describe that. What is that? Who made that? Why was it developed? Just give us a little bit of background on that.  

[00:05:35] Denim Slade: Yeah. Before I do that, I also just have to say that those of you that are fans of this podcast and of Kim and Ferne ought to know that really what what you see is what you get and Kim is-- I don't know Ferne well yet, but Kim is an amazing person, and what's under the surface and behind the scenes is just as wonderful as what you see week in and week out in this podcast. And so--  

[00:06:03] Kim Ades: And yes, I do pay him for that.  

[00:06:05] Denim Slade: [Laughs]  

[00:06:05] Kim Ades: [Laughs]  

[00:06:06] Denim Slade: You don't pay me for that! [Laughs] It's very true. So yeah. I have always been really fascinated with personality, and when you're in the business of helping people change, it's really important to be able to know and understand the things that you can change and that are changeable, and things that are not changeable, and personality has been studied for decades now and has been shown to not be changeable.

And a lot of us spend a lot of time trying to change aspects of ourselves that are not only not changeable, but that are not broken. And so it's much more effective to understand those aspects and work within and learn how to be a healthier version of who we are than to try to change who we are.

[00:07:01] Kim Ades: Give us an example of something that is not changeable.  

[00:07:04] Denim Slade: Yeah! So, what CORE gets at is the underl-- It's temperament. So there's a little bit of a difference between temperament and personality. And temperament has been studied, again, for decades and temperament is what we come into life with.

We come into life with an underlying motivation that drives why we do the things that we do and why we don't do the things that we don't do. And so over the course of the years of working with people, I'd come across there are lots of of assessments out there and lots of really good things, but I had never found one that was really consistent with what I saw working with people day in and day out, or they were so complicated that most people had a hard time implementing them into their lives.  

And so about 10 years ago, I decided to start collecting data of my own and I have a PhD and so I know how to do research, and so I spent about three years collecting data, and then about a year and a half analyzing that data, and CORE is the result of it. And so, CORE is a personality or temperament framework and model that really gets at the underlying reasons of why we do what we do.  

So you, Kim, are an R O. So the CORE is an acronym. Each letter represents a different temperament or personality type. And most people have a pretty dominant primary type and then a pretty substantial secondary type as well.  

And so Kim's dominant type is R, which stands for Resolution, and her secondary type is O, which stands for Optimism. And we can get into that. And Ferne just took the test a couple days ago, I was looking at your results earlier and you came back as an R E, right?  

[00:09:05] Ferne Kotlyar: Mm-hmm.  

[00:09:07] Kim Ades: So give us all the letters and tell us what they all mean.  

[00:09:10] Denim Slade: Yeah! So again, CORE, it's C O R E. And so the first personality or temperament type stands for comfort and connection. And so Cs are motivated by comfort. Comfortable clothes, comfortable furniture, comfortable emotions. Cs very proactively structure their lives to create comfort and to avoid discomfort. I don't know how in depth we want to go there, but that's what the C stands for.  

O stands for optimism, and Os are motivated by fun, they're motivated by pleasant emotion. Os are the most people oriented, they live in the present. Os do most everything in their lives to create an enjoyable and emotional environment. Have a hard time with conflict, they have a hard time planning for the future because they don't want to get-- they don't want to commit to something. And then when the time comes, either have a better option that they would wanna do or feel locked in and have to create some conflict to get out.  

R stands for resolution. And Rs are the movement makers in our society. Rs are motivated by getting things done, and they are the only temperament type that lives in the future. And so they're constantly looking at what is next, and... they love to make lists, they love to have several things moving forward at once...

[00:10:58] Kim Ades: [Laughs]  

[00:10:58] Denim Slade: Rs have a tremendous amount--  

[00:11:00] Kim Ades: You know how many lists I have?? [Laughs]  

[00:11:02] Denim Slade: [Laughs] I can imagine.  

[00:11:03] Ferne Kotlyar: Not only lists, you tell everybody else to make lists.

[00:11:06] Denim Slade: [Laughs]

[00:11:06] Kim Ades: That's right. [Chuckles] Did you make a list?  

[00:11:08] Denim Slade: [Chuckles] Yeah.

[00:11:10] Kim Ades: [Chuckles]  

[00:11:10] Denim Slade: And Ferne, that's actually a really good example because we tend to think that the most efficient way for somebody to function is the way that works for us, and we tend to think that other people's brains work the way that our brains work. But yeah, Rs are super passionate, when something comes on the R radar, it's all that they see, it's all that exists and all of their energy goes into getting whatever that is done. If an R can't create movement, they'll move to something that they can create movement on. So, Rs don't sit in something that they can't move.  

And the result is getting it done. You know, one of the interesting things about the Rs, since you're an R and you'll talk about this for just a second. When something comes to the attention of an R, when something is unresolved, it creates emotional strain for the R And it doesn't like if the keys are lost or the remote is lost, or there's something that is undone, and by getting it done, by checking that thing off the list, it resolves that emotional discomfort.  

Most Rs, depending on the secondary type, but most Rs, when they get something done, don't spend a lot of time saying "Oh, look at this thing that I did. Look at this thing that I made", or "Look at this paper that I wrote", or whatever. What drives that resolution is that it's no longer bugging them. And frankly, most Rs, if every T isn't crossed or every I isn't dotted, it doesn't create a lot of strain because what's driving them is this drive to get it done and then they move on to something else that they can then get done.

And then E stands for exactness, and Es bring quality to society. The E brain naturally looks at anything and everything and sees how to make it better. Doesn't matter whether it's how to load the dishwasher, how to arrange the closet, how to drive from point A to point B, how to have a conversation. The E brain looks at what has happened and sees how to improve it for the next time.  

I don't use never and always very often, but I don't believe that I've ever heard an E say something was perfect, there's always something that could make it better. And so, Es live in the past because they're looking at what has occurred to make it better for the future. Es have a lot of confidence in their own conclusions, Es think through things very thoroughly, and they settle on the best way, the right way.  

And so, if you disagree with an E, their tendency is to think that you're wrong [chuckles] not that you're stupid, but if you knew what they knew or if you had the pieces of data that they had, you would also obviously land on the same conclusion that they've landed on. Es are... Their thoughts become very precious to them, they almost become like treasures.  

So Cs are motivated very much by emotion and emotional comfort, Es are motivated by logic and thoughts, and so, if you ask any a question, they will frequently kind of do an assessment of the likelihood of you really caring, you really wanting to know because if an E is going to share something with you, they're gonna share the whole story, they're gonna walk you through how they landed where they landed.  

And so if they don't think that you're going to really care or if you're just sort of asking just out of social appropriateness or whatever, then they're not going to open up. But if they do open up, they're gonna tell you the whole story. So anyway, that's kind of a brief overview of what CORE is.

[00:15:31] Ferne Kotlyar: And--  

[00:15:31] Kim Ades: So you-- Go ahead.  

[00:15:33] Ferne Kotlyar: I was just gonna say, do you think that everybody fits into one of these categories or kind of a combination? Are there people who don't fit these boxes?  

[00:15:43] Denim Slade: No [chuckles] They're not. Again, you can have aspects of most of them. But I haven't met anybody who doesn't, because, again, I created a model that describes what's going on in life, right? But I didn't create personality or temperament. And so all I've done with CORE is describe and explain phenomenon that are occurring. And so, I think that the model's pretty good and I think the research is pretty extensive, and so...  

[00:16:28] Ferne Kotlyar: And can you tell us a little bit about this research? What did you do in terms of that data collection? In terms of research? The analysis? All of that.  

[00:16:35] Kim Ades: There's another PhD student.  

[00:16:37] Ferne Kotlyar: [Chuckles]  

[00:16:37] Kim Ades: Talking to a PhD.  

[00:16:38] Denim Slade: Yeah, and a very E question. Good job, Ferne! [Laughs]  

[00:16:42] Kim Ades: [Laughs]  

[00:16:42] Ferne Kotlyar: [Laughs] Thanks.  

[00:16:45] Denim Slade: Yeah, so I spent three years interviewing people. And so, I would ask them about underlying motivations. I had a set of questions that I asked, and I also, anytime somebody said something about why they did what they did, I wrote it down, word for word what they said.

And so I collected this huge set of data, qualitative data. And then, as I started going through the process of, of analyzing it, the qualitative data points that I collected categorized into these-- clustered around these four temperament types. And so, then I developed an assessment to go with that and I continued to interview more people and continued to validate the model and the assessment.

[00:17:52] Ferne Kotlyar: Interesting. And--  

[00:17:53] Kim Ades: So I have a question... Sorry.  

[00:17:55] Denim Slade: Okay, sorry. Go for it.  

[00:17:56] Kim Ades: I have a question. You said that, O people live in the moment, but R people are future focus. So I'm an R and an O, so how did they coexist in one human?

[00:18:10] Denim Slade: [Chuckles]Â Probably not very well. [Chuckles] So that can be the R O combination. It's actually one of my favorite combinations too. My wife is an R O. And so it depends also on how much of your secondary type there is. So an R that is like an 80% R and 20% O will look very different than somebody who's like a 55% R and a 45% O, but that juxtaposition inside can create con conflict.  

So my daughter, my oldest daughter is an E O and she's a lot of both. She's a primary E but she's like probably, I don't know, 52% E and 48% O. And so she talks a lot about this internal push and pull of these two motivations. I'll give you an example, a concrete example.

She's actually one of my healthy and happy coaches, she's my E coach, and we have weekly coach trainings and Rachel's also in law school and so she's pretty busy. And so last week during our-- right before our coach's training, she called me and said, "Dad, Sydney's here, and she's begging me--" Sydney's my other daughter... "begging me to go to lunch" because I was going to Guatemala with Sydney later that day. And my daughter Sydney is an O and so she wanted to have some fun with her sister before she left.  

And so here's this internal conflict that gets created between Rachel's E responsibility and doing the right thing and her O "here's an opportunity to have some fun that just presented, what do I wanna do?" And so, she felt this push and pull of wanting to blow off the meeting and go have fun with her sister, and wanting to be responsible and do the things that she had committed to do.  

How she resolved that is she wanted me to make the decision for her [chuckles] and bail her out of that conflict, which I didn't do [laughs] I left it with her. And so what she did is she took the meeting with her to lunch [laughs] and went to lunch with Sydney and was on the meeting trying to participate.  

So that really can create a lot of push and pull internally. So, like the R O, the R will be pulled into future planning, wanting to get things done. The present never quite catches up for the R. By the time the present catches up to where to now, the R brain is already on to what's coming next, and--  

[00:21:06] Ferne Kotlyar: Are--  

[00:21:08] Denim Slade: Go ahead.  

[00:21:08] Ferne Kotlyar: Oh, sorry. Are there any temperaments that go well together?  

[00:21:14] Denim Slade: Yeah, you can make any combination work. I get that question a lot, you know? Especially when it comes to dating or marriage or serious commitment. But do you mean internally or relational?  

[00:21:26] Ferne Kotlyar: Yeah, internally is what I was referring to. 'Cause you mentioned that R O kind of has that internal conflict, are there some that don't have that conflict?

[00:21:34] Denim Slade: No, 'cause they're all motivated by different things, right? There are some that create less conflict. I'm an O C. And Os and Cs go together pretty well. And so I don't have a lot of internal conflict. Rs and Es are the most intense, their intensity is a little bit different, but they're the most intense of the types. And so when there's an R or an E element, it tends to create a little more conflict, just because of the intensity of the drive.  

[00:22:14] Kim Ades: So just saying you are an R-- I'm an R, but Allan is an E.  

[00:22:19] Ferne Kotlyar: Adrien is an E too.  

[00:22:22] Kim Ades: So, Adrien is Ferne's boyfriend and Allan is my husband. So when you and Alan, for example, butt heads, as you sometimes do, now you kind of maybe know why.

[00:22:41] Denim Slade: Well in your second-- Oh, go ahead, Ferne.  

[00:22:43] Ferne Kotlyar: No, no. You can go for it.  

[00:22:45] Denim Slade: No, you go. What were you gonna say?  

[00:22:47] Ferne Kotlyar: [Chuckles] No, I was just gonna ask if having this perspective of the assessment, does it change the way you see people? Because she mentioned that you know, "now you know why", does it change the way you see people? And mom, if it changes the way you look at the world as well.

[00:23:05] Denim Slade: Do you wanna go first, Kim or do you want me to go?  

[00:23:07] Kim Ades: Well, for me, I mean, learning that Allan has certain tendencies, like Denim mentioned, Allan always picks like the right way to get somewhere. If we have three or five errands to run, he's like "Okay, first we're gonna go here, then we're gonna go here, then we're gonna go here. It makes sense, right? 'Cause we're going in this direction and it's like the shortest way".  

And so he always pre-plans it. He always needs tell... whatever, he needs to use Waze to get to wherever we're going, even though we know where we're going. I don't need to know where we're going, but he needs to know how long it's gonna take and if there's gonna be traffic and all of this stuff. So all of a sudden I now understand where all of that's coming from, whereas before it would just like, kind of bug me, right? Now I'm like "Oh, right. That's where it's coming from".  

[00:23:54] Denim Slade: Yeah.  

[00:23:54] Kim Ades: So, for me, it helps me understand him a little bit better. His need to create a certain experience or an environment that's as smooth as possible. That's why we give him all the tasks related to travel and administration and all of that stuff. He's the best one for it. But at the same time, sometimes I don't need somebody to tell me where to go.  

[00:24:19] Denim Slade: [Laughs]  

[00:24:19] Kim Ades: Right? [Chuckles]  

[00:24:20] Denim Slade: Or how to get there. [Laughs]  

[00:24:21] Kim Ades: Or how to get there. Sometimes I don't need Waze talking in the background, sometimes I like to not know where I'm going. Sometimes I like to take a different route. Sometimes I'm like "Hey, let's turn here and see what exists here", because that's my nature.  

[00:24:35] Denim Slade: That's your O-ness.  

[00:24:37] Kim Ades: Right. So, I'm a little bit more spontaneous, and so sometimes I need to interject and kind of throw his plans out the window, but also now he kind of knows where it's coming from.

[00:24:51] Denim Slade: Yeah. And I think that this is actually one of the most important aspects of temperament and personality. Ferne, it's a really good question. And I'll use a C or an E as an example. So, Cs and Es, neither one of them hardly ever say anything without thinking it through first. Cs and Es are the most internal processing.  

So, for an R almost everything that comes into the R brain comes outta the R mouth. They're very "what you see is what you get", and so you don't have to wonder what else is going on behind the scenes. But a C or an E has so much going on inside and so much that they're processing and they hardly ever say something without thinking it through first.

And so if you've gotta C that is in a relationship with an R, we tend to think, like I said before, we tend to think that other people do things for the same reasons that we do them. And so Rs pop off all the time and--  

[00:25:57] Kim Ades: What does pop off mean?  

[00:25:58] Ferne Kotlyar: Yeah, good question.  

[00:26:00] Denim Slade: Oh, maybe that's a western thing. I don't know. Pop off means just whatever comes into their head, comes outta their mouth. They just like, if you think, "Oh, that's a dumb idea" or "no, you shouldn't do that. You should do this". That's what popping off is. They've no filter. And so if you've got a C that's in a relationship with an R, who is just like popping off all the time... I need a better word. How would you say that? [Laughs]  

[00:26:35] Kim Ades: Speaking freely.  

[00:26:37] Denim Slade: Yeah.  

[00:26:37] Kim Ades: Unfiltered. Unfiltered!  

[00:26:38] Denim Slade: Unfiltered, yeah. Unfiltered is a good way. Who's speaking unfilteredly... [Laughs]  

[00:26:42] Kim Ades: [Laughs]  

[00:26:42] Ferne Kotlyar: [Chuckles]  

[00:26:44] Denim Slade: Then a lot of times-- And also... An R will say something that they feel or think in the moment and then five minutes later they might be thinking or feeling something completely differently. And I've had a lot of clients, C clients who will come back and say "my husband 15 years ago said that he didn't like this about me" or whatever, and the husband will be like "I don't think that", and the C will be "but you said that".  

And so understanding the way that the R brain works in that is really powerful for the C to understand that if the C said that, it would be very intentional, it would be what they felt, what they really thought. They would've really thought about it before they ever said it. And so then they assume that that's what's happened inside of the R brain as well. And so they put a lot of stock in that when in reality it's very different. Does that make sense?  

[00:27:53] Kim Ades: So, Ferne is an R E, so those seem to clash as well.  

[00:27:57] Denim Slade: R E is a really interesting combination. It's a super powerful combination because R get a lot done and Es do things really well, and so R Es get a lot done well. Now, emotionally that can be really intense. I mentioned that those are the two most intense.

Rs intensity is like a stick of dynamite. When there's an obstacle in front of the R, the R intensity flares up and out really fast. So it's like [mimics explosion]. So their energy is really good at blowing through obstacles, and then they get over things really quickly.  

You can have a pretty good fight with an R and literally-- so, this happens in my marriage all the time... We'll have a fight and then-- my wife's name is Ellen... Ellen will be like "How long are you gonna stay mad?"

[00:28:54] Ferne Kotlyar: [Laughs]  

[00:28:54] Kim Ades: [Laughs]  

[00:28:55] Denim Slade: Well, we just, like 30 seconds ago, ended this thing, so it might take me a minute". But the R shifts gears really quickly and gets over things really quickly because their intensity, again, is like a stick of dynamite and they live in the future.

The Es intensity is like flowing lava. It's like a diesel train. Es have this tenacity to slog through things in order to do them the right way. And so their intensity is just like a freight train or flowing lava that will just blow, just-- they're not gonna like knock you out of the way, but they're just gonna keep going and just try to stop them. And so they're super intense, but they're not like overtly or outwardly intense, they're just internally gonna keep chugging.  

[00:29:54] Kim Ades: So that means when Ferne has something that she absolutely wants to do, when she's determined, she 100000% gets it done. She does it. Even if people around her don't believe that it's feasible, she still does it. She's got this like-- you know, we used to say, and I still say, you're one of the toughest people I know. You are the toughest, you're the strongest person I know. It's very, very true.  

[00:30:21] Ferne Kotlyar: Thank you.  

[00:30:21] Kim Ades: Like, if she's running a race and she's in pain, doesn't matter. She keeps going.

[00:30:26] Denim Slade: Right. Yeah.  

[00:30:27] Kim Ades: I don't.  

[00:30:29] Ferne Kotlyar: Well, the pain will stop eventually.  

[00:30:32] Denim Slade: When the test is done, right?  

[00:30:33] Ferne Kotlyar: [Chuckles] Yeah! When you're there, then it can stop.  

[00:30:37] Denim Slade: And that's the strength of the E. That E tenacity is really, really good. Rs and Os, neither one have a very high tolerance for hassle. Rs don't like hassle because they don't like things that get in the way of their being able to get things done.

[00:30:58] Kim Ades: [Chuckles] That's why I'm very super-- I believe in efficiency on all matters.  

[00:31:02] Ferne Kotlyar: [Chuckles]  

[00:31:03] Denim Slade: Right.  

[00:31:03] Kim Ades: Efficiency and practicality. If it's not efficient and practical, pick another plan.  

[00:31:08] Ferne Kotlyar: [Chuckles]  

[00:31:09] Denim Slade: Right. And for the E brain that may not be the best way to do something.  

[00:31:13] Kim Ades: Well, and for Ferne, her morals, her ethics take precedence over practicality.

[00:31:23] Ferne Kotlyar: Shouldn't--  

[00:31:24] Denim Slade: Yeah. Go ahead, Ferne.  

[00:31:26] Ferne Kotlyar: No, I just said "shouldn't they?" [Chuckles]  

[00:31:30] Denim Slade: [Laughs]  

[00:31:30] Kim Ades: Not always. And what I mean by that is sometimes it's okay to...  

[00:31:37] Ferne Kotlyar: If you say, take an Uber...  

[00:31:39] Kim Ades: ...take an Uber [Laughs]  

[00:31:41] Denim Slade: [Chuckles]  

[00:31:42] Kim Ades: Right? Sometimes it's okay to pay a little more for rent 'cause it's closer to the university. Sometimes it's okay to do those things even though it rubs against your sense of fairness. That's the word I'm after.  

[00:31:57] Denim Slade: Yeah, fairness and justice are huge for the E brain. There is a right way to do things and there's all other ways.  

[00:32:07] Ferne Kotlyar: [Laughs]  

[00:32:09] Denim Slade: And fairness and justice is huge for that E brain. You're hitting at something that's really, really important here too, in understanding how the ebra works. So, whatever the goal or the objective is, is going to determine what the right or the best way is, right? And so if efficiency is the best-- is the goal... So I-- an example that I think of all the time is backpacking.  

I like to backpack. And so if an E is going backpacking and the goal is speed and efficiency, then the E is going to think of like the lightest shoes, the lightest pack, easy food. It's gonna be all about the best way to make it efficient. But if the goal is comfort and enjoying the scenery, then the right way is gonna be very different, right? They're gonna have a heavy pack that has a nice, thick mattress, they're gonna have steaks to cook, they're gonna take their time--  

[00:33:15] Kim Ades: That's Louis.  

[00:33:16] Denim Slade: So, whatever the objective is, is what's going to determine what the right way is. Does that make sense?  

[00:33:28] Ferne Kotlyar: I think so. And so, you mentioned kind of internal conflict, what about the connection between people? Are there--  

[00:33:35] Denim Slade: Relational?  

[00:33:36] Ferne Kotlyar: Yeah, relational, but do the same temperaments conflict or do they come together? Do they compliment each other?  

[00:33:44] Denim Slade: Well, both. So, your mom mentioned her R O-ness with Allan's E-ness, right? And probably some of the same dynamic that occurs between the two of you. The R is going to be pulling things forward and wanting to get things done and not wanting to sit and debate and marinate in a decision. And an E will take as long as it takes to decide and to execute.  

And for the E it doesn't matter if it's gonna be a 15 year trajectory. If they get their plan set, again, like a freight train, they'll chug on that for 15 years. Well, if you say to an R "Okay, we're gonna do this and it's gonna take you 15 years", they're gonna be like, "Are you-- Ah!"  

So yeah, there are certainly combinations that work easier. Every temperament type has very predictable strengths and very predictable challenges. Things that are conducive to being healthy and things that are in the way of being healthy. And so if you know that and understand that, 'cause, again, these things are not changeable. You cannot change why your underlying temperament of why you do the things that you do, it's not changeable. And so when you understand that, it changes the way that you interpret what they're doing.

So if your mom knows that your E brain is making these decisions about housing or about taking an Uber or not, then she's gonna be less frustrated with you. She still might not agree, but she's going to understand a sign, a different meaning to why you're being stubborn, right?

"Why do you have to be so set in your ways? Why does it always have to be your way?" Well, if I understand that you're an E, I understand that internal conflict, and if you understand that you're an E, then you can understand that your brain is going to say, "Well, yeah, my way is the right way and my default is to have very little tolerance for somebody thinking differently than I think". Then you can manage it. You can't change that propensity, but you can manage it behaviorally, if that makes sense.  

[00:36:21] Ferne Kotlyar: Do you think that you can change the rough proportions of how much-- Like, if you're an R E, can you change like from 50% to 75 type of thing? Or is it just like the first time you take the test, that's it, that's what it is for the rest of your life, and if you take it five years later, you're gonna get the same results.  

[00:36:37] Denim Slade: Well, so there's a little bit different between the test and your temperament. I created the test, and it was pretty hard to create because again, I'm trying to get at the underlying reason why you do things. So I love it when I know somebody who takes the assessment.  

The assessment might not be right [chuckles] because it's self report and it's a questionnaire, right? And so, the statistics on it are pretty good and I'm continually watching those. But your underlying, who you are is not gonna change.

[00:37:14] Ferne Kotlyar: So, sorry, you mentioned the statistics. How would you kind of assess whether or not it's accurate?  

[00:37:21] Denim Slade: So, what I've done up to this point, and I've got enough data now that I can start running some factor analyses, but what I've done is I've looked at every question, because what you want a question to do is you want-- So, as an R, a primary R, on a given question, you want the R to choose the R response, and you don't want Cs, Os or Es to choose that response, right? You want them to say "No, that's not me" and you want the R to say "Yeah, that is me".  

And so, I started out with 24 questions. Again, I had tons of people, I interviewed people that I knew and I created these things. And so I look at-- and I could show you the spreadsheet, but I look at every question and see how many Cs are choosing-- the percentage of Cs that are choosing the C answer--

[00:38:16] Ferne Kotlyar: So these are people you already know that are Cs.  

[00:38:19] Denim Slade: Yeah, yeah.  

[00:38:21] Ferne Kotlyar: Okay, so it's based on personal assessment of them, and in reference to the question.  

[00:38:26] Denim Slade: That's what it started with. Now I've got a pretty big data set and so now I can see that people that are coming back as a C on the-- it's a 12 question questionnaire at this point... And so I can see how many Cs-- percentage of Cs that are choosing different answers across those 12. So now everybody that takes it becomes part of the statistical analysis, if that makes sense.  

[00:38:56] Ferne Kotlyar: Makes sense.  

[00:38:56] Kim Ades: All the technical questions.  

[00:38:59] Denim Slade: Yes!  

[00:39:00] Kim Ades: Ferne wants to know how it works. All right, so here's my kind of rounding--  

[00:39:05] Denim Slade: You probably didn't know all about that.  

[00:39:06] Kim Ades: Not at all.

[00:39:07] Denim Slade: [Laughs]  

[00:39:07] Kim Ades: But here's my rounding it off question. My rounding it off question is, if somebody wants to take an assessment and figure out what they are, C O R or E, can they do that? Will you permit that to happen? And if so, how do they find you?  

[00:39:22] Denim Slade: Yes. Yeah, go to denimslade.com.

[00:39:25] Kim Ades: Denim like the jeans.  

[00:39:27] Denim Slade: Denim like the jeans. denimslade.com and the assessment is there, you can take it. You'll get results, and then you can communicate with me if you have any questions about it. I'm obviously a little bit biased, but I think relationally it's a game changer if you really understand, and that's your relationship with yourself, as well as your relationships with the important people in your life.  

As an owner of an organization, knowing what each each job is and what the tasks are, there are strengths and personalities, when I hire somebody, I know that this job is really well suited for an E. In fact, I'm hiring somebody right now, and I want an O E. I'm looking for somebody to help me with some social media, so I want some O-ness in there, but I need excellence and I need some precision. And so as I interview people, I know that the skill set I want is an OE skill set.  

And then like you said, Kim, relationally, when you understand why-- I think, and there's data that backs this up, well over 90% of the conflict that occurs comes from misunderstanding one another. And CORE is so powerful in helping somebody know how to interpret why somebody's doing what they're doing.  

[00:41:10] Kim Ades: Well, I think it's been very interesting for me to learn my own personality and more. I mean, it also helps me understand why sometimes I take 10 steps forward and five steps backwards. But that's me [chuckles].  

And it has definitely helped me understand how Allan thinks, I mean, just in terms of how we relate to each other, what drives him, what's important to him, and to some degree now we can, instead of getting frustrated about it, we can laugh about it, and so that's useful as well.  

But I wanna thank you for being a guest on our show, for sharing your work, for working with me as well. It's been amazing. And Ferne, you get the last word. Any last thoughts? You can wrap it up.  

[00:41:59] Ferne Kotlyar: Oh, lucky me! Yeah, I think it was really interesting as well. And same, like, my partner is also an E, so it's also really interesting to see that dynamic. But thank you again. I've heard so much about you, so it was really nice to finally meet you. And I guess, see you next time.  

[00:42:18] Denim Slade: Thank you. I appreciate you having me. Been a fun conversation.  

[00:42:22] Ferne Kotlyar: For those of you who are listening, if you want more information on the CORE assessment, go to denimslade.com. And we would love to hear your thoughts on this particular episode. It's a little bit different from the norm, so please reach out to us. Ferne, how do they reach you? Please email me. My email is Fernekotlyar.com.  

[00:42:45] Kim Ades: And--  

[00:42:46] Denim Slade: You can also-- Oh, sorry.  

[00:42:47] Kim Ades: Yeah, go ahead.  

[00:42:48] Denim Slade: You can also find me on Instagram or Facebook. Instagram, it's Become Healthy and Happy. And then on Facebook, it's Denim Slade.  

[00:42:59] Kim Ades: And you can get me at Kim@frameofmindcoaching.com. We will see you next week. Have a good one, everyone!

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